# Isomers and tartaric acid



## oscar412 (Dec 20, 2022)

I have never split isomers. Can anyone who has done this process clear this up for me.
There is L+ tartaric acid {which is the dexto isomer, what is easy to buy )
And D-tartaric acid(which is Levo, what is hard to buy besides from china)
I am a little bit confused reading threads and articles about actually doing it. So say i use L+ tartaric acid which is dextro isomer, and i have 1 mole of freebase meth/ampt. Am i using this to crystallize the full mole of freebase to then produce 
D meth/ampht D tartate and L meth/ampht D tartate, which in turn will give these two isomer different solubilities?
Or will the L+ tartar acid selectivity crystallize the D isomer of my freebase, which then this will mean i need 0.5mole of L+tartaric acid for 1Mole of freebase.
I have read alot of conflicting infomation, its very confusing when it comes to tartaric acid. If anyone has experience, it will be well appreciated.


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

here, i made this a while back, the first row describes "my" procedure, i didnt go into detail for D-tartaric acid route because I don't have first hand experience, but using L-tartric in excess as described produces, I think atleast, pretty optically pure product, I don't have a way to prove it yet but the theory checks out, as well as the pharmacology being noticeably better, lower heart rate, no spasm, reduced bruxism.Also the fact that *L-tartaric acid*(they make the distinction) gets siezed on the regular if you keep up with the literature.It's a case of "trust me bro" but like I said, the theory is solid.

I will put in some work these coming days, working "on the record" with my results and proportions and I might open a thread to show my findings, or post here idk

also excuse the artwork, I am not the best graphic designer


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## G.Patton

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> here, i made this a while back, the first row describes "my" procedure, i didnt go into detail for D-tartaric acid route because I don't have first hand experience, but using L-tartric in excess as described produces, I think atleast, pretty optically pure product, I don't have a way to prove it yet but the theory checks out, as well as the pharmacology being noticeably better, lower heart rate, no spasm, reduced bruxism.Also the fact that *L-tartaric acid*(they make the distinction) gets siezed on the regular if you keep up with the literature.It's a case of "trust me bro" but like I said, the theory is solid.
> 
> I will put in some work these coming days, working "on the record" with my results and proportions and I might open a thread to show my findings, or post here idk
> 
> ...



UWe9o12jkied91dGood job, thank you.


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## G.Patton

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> here, i made this a while back, the first row describes "my" procedure, i didnt go into detail for D-tartaric acid route because I don't have first hand experience, but using L-tartric in excess as described produces, I think atleast, pretty optically pure product, I don't have a way to prove it yet but the theory checks out, as well as the pharmacology being noticeably better, lower heart rate, no spasm, reduced bruxism.Also the fact that *L-tartaric acid*(they make the distinction) gets siezed on the regular if you keep up with the literature.It's a case of "trust me bro" but like I said, the theory is solid.
> 
> I will put in some work these coming days, working "on the record" with my results and proportions and I might open a thread to show my findings, or post here idk
> 
> ...



UWe9o12jkied91dThere is illustrated version in the end of topic. I don't know why people don't look and read there (Pic. 17-20) 





Dextroamphetamine synthesis (Nabenhower, 1942)


Introduction At the moment, there are many ways to synthesize dextroamphetamine. They can be divided into 3 types: biosynthesis (using biomass), direct synthesis, and synthesis of racemic (the sum of l- and d-isomers) amphetamine followed by separation of optical isomers. In our case, a...




bbgate.com


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

Also need to mention tartrate product is not so sensitive to low pH, so an excess dosent really hurt, the solution gets red, indicating the waste portion is spolied and the excess acid floats to the bottom much quicker than your flocculant but your solid holds up wholly, and comes out nice and white when filtered, won't go POOF like other offenders *ahem*


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## oscar412

oscar412 said:


> I have never split isomers. Can anyone who has done this process clear this up for me.
> There is L+ tartaric acid {which is the dexto isomer, what is easy to buy )
> And D-tartaric acid(which is Levo, what is hard to buy besides from china)
> I am a little bit confused reading threads and articles about actually doing it. So say i use L+ tartaric acid which is dextro isomer, and i have 1 mole of freebase meth/ampt. Am i using this to crystallize the full mole of freebase to then produce
> ...



oscar412EDIT: D meth/ampht L tartate
L meth/ampht L tartate


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

oscar412 said:


> EDIT: D meth/ampht L tartate
> L meth/ampht L tartate



oscar412come again?


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## oscar412

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> come again?



UWe9o12jkied91dSorry i couldnt edit my post


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## oscar412

_thank you, so the L+ tartaric acid selectivity crystallizes the D freebase, thats right isnt it?
could you not put your product under a polarimeter to check the rotation, this will confirm your product is oppitcally pure. I think your need a average rotation of +12.5 for D isomer of meth, i will have to double check this tho.
it would be good if you posted your results here.
what do you think the vest solvents ect is best to use?_


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

oscar412 said:


> _thank you, so the L+ tartaric acid selectivity crystallizes the D freebase, thats right isnt it?
> could you not put your product under a polarimeter to check the rotation, this will confirm your product is oppitcally pure. I think your need a average rotation of +12.5 for D isomer of meth, i will have to double check this tho.
> it would be good if you posted your results here.
> what do you think the vest solvents ect is best to use?_



oscar412ideally an alcohol + freebase, but integrated in the overall process it makes more sense to not steam distill as use extracts as is, as they will undergo at least 1 acid base purification by the end of it just by the nature of the process, sometimes 2.
as far as a polimeter I dont have access to one, I could prepare a racemic salt solution to compare its refraction indices but I'm not sure that's terribly conclusive


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## oscar412

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> ideally an alcohol + freebase, but integrated in the overall process it makes more sense to not steam distill as use extracts as is, as they will undergo at least 1 acid base purification by the end of it just by the nature of the process, sometimes 2.
> as far as a polimeter I dont have access to one, I could prepare a racemic salt solution to compare its refraction indices but I'm not sure that's terribly conclusive



UWe9o12jkied91dWe should really steam distilling the racemic freebase beforehand. It will probably make this alot eaiser. What about a bi phase system consisting of the tartaric acid in water and freebase in the non polar , and mix them together. Then the D isomer tartate should migrate into the water layer and the L freebase stay where it is.
I will try both and let you know

I will test it on my polarimeter when i have tried these methods


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

oscar412 said:


> We should really steam distilling the racemic freebase beforehand. It will probably make this alot eaiser. What about a bi phase system consisting of the tartaric acid in water and freebase in the non polar , and mix them together. Then the D isomer tartate should migrate into the water layer and the L freebase stay where it is.
> I will try both and let you know
> 
> I will test it on my polarimeter when i have tried these methods



oscar412distilling is a pain in the ass for me, but you go right ahead, the system you are proposing dosen't sound too bad, the only thing I could protest in regards to would be tartaric acid's solubility in water, but I'm not sure how or if it could affect the process, I am courious to your findings, keep us posted


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## oscar412

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> distilling is a pain in the ass for me, but you go right ahead, the system you are proposing dosen't sound too bad, the only thing I could protest in regards to would be tartaric acid's solubility in water, but I'm not sure how or if it could affect the process, I am courious to your findings, keep us posted



UWe9o12jkied91dI will , update this thread in a few days. Thanks


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

oscar412 said:


> _thank you, so the L+ tartaric acid selectivity crystallizes the D freebase, thats right isnt it?
> could you not put your product under a polarimeter to check the rotation, this will confirm your product is oppitcally pure. I think your need a average rotation of +12.5 for D isomer of meth, i will have to double check this tho.
> it would be good if you posted your results here.
> what do you think the vest solvents ect is best to use?_



oscar412an alcohol and not acetone with the reasoning that tartaric acid is more soluble in alcoholes rather than acetone, it might work better in acetone I haven;t tried


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## oscar412

Them diagrams are a great help , nice one. When i try it i will post my results here


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## btcboss2022 (Wednesday at 12:08 AM)

I think something wrong with graph.
If you use L+-tartaric acid(cheaper and easier to find)the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solution not in the solid as there appears.
If you use D-tartaric acid(more expensive and difficult to find) the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solid.
Thanks.


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## G.Patton (Wednesday at 12:08 AM)

btcboss2022 said:


> I think something wrong with graph.
> If you use L+-tartaric acid(cheaper and easier to find)the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solution not in the solid as there appears.
> If you use D-tartaric acid(more expensive and difficult to find) the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solid.
> Thanks.



btcboss2022His scheme is correct. Salt is precipitated into the solid state. No difference, d-amphetamine l-tartaric acid salt or l-amphetamine d-tartaric salt. You can change acid and get difference isomer in the solid state with following procedures.

P.S. same for methamphetamine.


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

G.Patton said:


> His scheme is correct. Salt is precipitated into the solid state. No difference, d-amphetamine l-tartaric acid salt or l-amphetamine d-tartaric salt. You can change acid and get difference isomer in the solid state with following procedures.
> 
> P.S. same for methamphetamine.



G.PattonOk, but even if it were like you said, which I don;t think it is, it would still be convenient, as long as ONE of them precipitates you have the ability to separate no matter which way


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## btcboss2022

G.Patton said:


> His scheme is correct. Salt is precipitated into the solid state. No difference, d-amphetamine l-tartaric acid salt or l-amphetamine d-tartaric salt. You can change acid and get difference isomer in the solid state with following procedures.
> 
> P.S. same for methamphetamine.



G.Patton"No difference, d-amphetamine l-tartaric acid salt or l-amphetamine d-tartaric salt"
I know that what I mean is that with L+tartaric(d-tartaric/dextrotartaric/D isomer) you will have have the D-amph or D-meth in the solution part not in the solid part.
Thanks.


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## oscar412

G.Patton said:


> I did it in equimolar ratio. For d-amph d-tartrane *excess* is used.



G.PattonSo L+ tartaric acid can precipitate both isomers


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## diogenes (Wednesday at 12:08 AM)

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> yeah probably unless i;m not missing anything



UWe9o12jkied91dG.Patton is correct. He basically uses the same method at the end of his procedure, which is used in this topic, he precipitates the D-Amphetamine with _excess_ d-tartaric (aka L-(+)-tartaric acid or the natural form) in the end. This way it forms D-Amphetamine-d-bitartrate aka D-Amphetamine-L-(+)-bitartrate salt. The same principle is used, except he first gets rid of most of the L-Amphetamine isomer by half-molar tartaric acid, which leads to the formation of Amphetamine tartrate. As it happens L-Amphetamine-d-tartrate is much less soluble in alcohols than D-Amphetamine-d- (or L-(+)-) tartrate.

I think the L-Amphetamine-d-bitartrate is not even a stable molecule and it gets oxidized by the excess tartaric acid, this is why the solution gets red. So Patton`s procedure is more elegant (but more labour intensive) and is capable of separating the L-amphetamine which in this topic`s method simply gets destroyed.


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## oscar412

Yes g.patton*, eirther way the both isomers are separated, one in the solvent and one as salt*


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## btcboss2022 (Dec 25, 2022)

I think something wrong with graph.
If you use L+-tartaric acid(cheaper and easier to find)the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solution not in the solid as there appears.
If you use D-tartaric acid(more expensive and difficult to find) the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solid.
Thanks.


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## G.Patton (Dec 25, 2022)

btcboss2022 said:


> I think something wrong with graph.
> If you use L+-tartaric acid(cheaper and easier to find)the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solution not in the solid as there appears.
> If you use D-tartaric acid(more expensive and difficult to find) the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solid.
> Thanks.



btcboss2022His scheme is correct. Salt is precipitated into the solid state. No difference, d-amphetamine l-tartaric acid salt or l-amphetamine d-tartaric salt. You can change acid and get difference isomer in the solid state with following procedures.

P.S. same for methamphetamine.


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## G.Patton (Dec 25, 2022)

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> Ok, but even if it were like you said, which I don;t think it is, it would still be convenient, as long as ONE of them precipitates you have the ability to separate no matter which way



UWe9o12jkied91dI applied pictures there (pic 18). We will make a video with d-isomer separation to explain it. I think a lot of same questions will be there after video =)


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## oscar412

G.Patton said:


> I applied pictures there (pic 18). We will make a video with d-isomer separation to explain it. I think a lot of same questions will be there after video =)



G.PattonWhat do you mean under pic 18.
"We precipitate d-amphetamine with an additional amount of d-tartaric acid". I thought the d tartaric acid you used crashed the l amphetamine d tartaric salt out. How is it going to precipitate the d amphetamine left in the solution?


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

oscar412 said:


> What do you mean under pic 18.
> "We precipitate d-amphetamine with an additional amount of d-tartaric acid". I thought the d tartaric acid you used crashed the l amphetamine d tartaric salt out. How is it going to precipitate the d amphetamine left in the solution?



oscar412D-tartric leaves the desired enantiomer in solution, your solid is now your waste in this case, opposite for L-tartaric (the common one), you then precipitate with your desired acid. During both these processes you will arrive at the sulphate or phosphate, as the tartrates are not storeable


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## oscar412

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> D-tartric leaves the desired enantiomer in solution, your solid is now your waste in this case, opposite for L-tartaric (the common one), you then precipitate with your desired acid. During both these processes you will arrive at the sulphate or phosphate, as the tartrates are not storeable



UWe9o12jkied91dI understand that. But if you read the procedure that is posted , here it is.
"Extract with 5 ml of petroleum ether and warm the solution, add 2.45 g of d-tartaric acid in alcohol solution to the mixture. Then add alcohol until completely dissolved and cool with stirring. The l-amphetamine d-tartaric salt precipitates. The _d-amphetamine_ remains in the solution. You can repeat procedure of cleaning precipitate of l-amphetamine d-tartaric salt by methanol to increase yield."
This next bit i am talking about .
"We precipitate d-amphetamine with an additional amount of d-tartaric acid. We filter the precipitate, get the base of d-amphetamine, adding alkali to pH = 11"


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## oscar412

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> D-tartric leaves the desired enantiomer in solution, your solid is now your waste in this case, opposite for L-tartaric (the common one), you then precipitate with your desired acid. During both these processes you will arrive at the sulphate or phosphate, as the tartrates are not storeable



UWe9o12jkied91dThat is on g pattons procedure, is that a mistake


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

oscar412 said:


> That is on g pattons procedure, is that a mistake



oscar412yeah probably unless i;m not missing anything


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## oscar412

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> yeah probably unless i;m not missing anything



UWe9o12jkied91dYe it doesnt make sense , wait and see what the video is like he is making


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## G.Patton

oscar412 said:


> Ye it doesnt make sense , wait and see what the video is like he is making



oscar412I mean that excess of d-tartaric acid precipitate d-amphetamine as well. It is sort of a/b extraction. I think you can skip this step and acidify ether solution after first d-tartaric acid addition.


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## oscar412

G.Patton said:


> I mean that excess of d-tartaric acid precipitate d-amphetamine as well. It is sort of a/b extraction. I think you can skip this step and acidify ether solution after first d-tartaric acid addition.



G.PattonOk. But how can you precipitate d amphetamine with d tartaric acid, When you seperated
l amphetamine d tartate with this same tartraic acid in the step before


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## oscar412

G.Patton said:


> I mean that excess of d-tartaric acid precipitate d-amphetamine as well. It is sort of a/b extraction. I think you can skip this step and acidify ether solution after first d-tartaric acid addition.



G.PattonThere is alot of confusion around this topic. Hopefully your video sheds some light on it .


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## G.Patton

oscar412 said:


> Ok. But how can you precipitate d amphetamine with d tartaric acid, When you seperated
> l amphetamine d tartate with this same tartraic acid in the step before



oscar412I did it in equimolar ratio. For d-amph d-tartrane *excess* is used.


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## oscar412

G.Patton said:


> I did it in equimolar ratio. For d-amph d-tartrane *excess* is used.



G.PattonSo L+ tartaric acid can precipitate both isomers


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## smallworker

It sounds good this way 

I have another way. I used L++ tartaric. I make the base oil and l++ tartaric together. 
I make 1.4L h2o and put 700gr tartaric together. This mixture i put on 1L freebase oil. 

After few minutes he became solid. I let cooldown the mass and will after few hours separated by centrifuge 
We oil who comes out i make to ph11/12 to receive the base oil 
And the powder how stays in the centrifuge i makr this with hot water and also bring with naoh to ph 11/12 to take the base oil 

D and L seperated..


Some suggestion to make it better?


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

smallworker said:


> It sounds good this way
> 
> I have another way. I used L++ tartaric. I make the base oil and l++ tartaric together.
> I make 1.4L h2o and put 700gr tartaric together. This mixture i put on 1L freebase oil.
> ...



smallworkerAre you seaprating the watery layer from solvent layer before centrifuge? It sounds to me like your're wasting product in the water layer if yes, but maybe I don;t understand.


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## smallworker

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> Are you seaprating the watery layer from solvent layer before centrifuge? It sounds to me like your're wasting product in the water layer if yes, but maybe I don;t understand.



UWe9o12jkied91dYes i take off from the solid piece all water into filterpaper an than put together the water and the water from the centrifuged solidnmass.

This together i make with noah ph 12


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## oscar412

smallworker said:


> Yes i take off from the solid piece all water into filterpaper an than put together the water and the water from the centrifuged solidnmass.
> 
> This together i make with noah ph 12



smallworkerIs your d amp/meth the solid mass


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

oscar412 said:


> Is your d amp/meth the solid mass



oscar412yes, probably, he's describing the L-tartaric route. he centrifuges to remove as much solvent and l-amph as possible then basifies his solid product( d-amph l-tartrate) and reprecipitates as far as I understand, which is good


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## oscar412

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> yes, probably, he's describing the L-tartaric route. he centrifuges to remove as much solvent and l-amph as possible then basifies his solid product( d-amph l-tartrate) and reprecipitates as far as I understand, which is good



UWe9o12jkied91dYer that is a good route.


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## G.Patton

smallworker said:


> It sounds good this way
> 
> I have another way. I used L++ tartaric. I make the base oil and l++ tartaric together.
> I make 1.4L h2o and put 700gr tartaric together. This mixture i put on 1L freebase oil.
> ...



smallworkerHello. Your d-amphetamine L-tartaric salt will not precipitate in water because it is soluble in water. As I wrote in my manual, you have to use alcohol for tartaric acid.


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## smallworker

Yess use L++ tartaric


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## btcboss2022 (Wednesday at 12:08 AM)

I think something wrong with graph.
If you use L+-tartaric acid(cheaper and easier to find)the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solution not in the solid as there appears.
If you use D-tartaric acid(more expensive and difficult to find) the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solid.
Thanks.


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## G.Patton (Wednesday at 12:08 AM)

btcboss2022 said:


> I think something wrong with graph.
> If you use L+-tartaric acid(cheaper and easier to find)the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solution not in the solid as there appears.
> If you use D-tartaric acid(more expensive and difficult to find) the D enantiomer(amph,Meth) will be in the solid.
> Thanks.



btcboss2022His scheme is correct. Salt is precipitated into the solid state. No difference, d-amphetamine l-tartaric acid salt or l-amphetamine d-tartaric salt. You can change acid and get difference isomer in the solid state with following procedures.

P.S. same for methamphetamine.


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## diogenes (Wednesday at 12:08 AM)

UWe9o12jkied91d said:


> yeah probably unless i;m not missing anything



UWe9o12jkied91dG.Patton is correct. He basically uses the same method at the end of his procedure, which is used in this topic, he precipitates the D-Amphetamine with _excess_ d-tartaric (aka L-(+)-tartaric acid or the natural form) in the end. This way it forms D-Amphetamine-d-bitartrate aka D-Amphetamine-L-(+)-bitartrate salt. The same principle is used, except he first gets rid of most of the L-Amphetamine isomer by half-molar tartaric acid, which leads to the formation of Amphetamine tartrate. As it happens L-Amphetamine-d-tartrate is much less soluble in alcohols than D-Amphetamine-d- (or L-(+)-) tartrate.

I think the L-Amphetamine-d-bitartrate is not even a stable molecule and it gets oxidized by the excess tartaric acid, this is why the solution gets red. So Patton`s procedure is more elegant (but more labour intensive) and is capable of separating the L-amphetamine which in this topic`s method simply gets destroyed.


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