# All in One Thread for Ethyl-Methyl PMK Glycidate conversion to PMK



## Fring

Since it seems a lot of folks (including me) are having problems with the conversion / re-arrangement of this "new" pmk glycidate, i think we could put toguether all in thus thread to see if we finally get a 100% working conversion recipe.

im following an Alkali-hcl with NaHCO3 washing with bad results, dense and dirty dark brown olily substance.
but i have a very new Way , that ill post at the end of this thread, sound very interesting, but first what i tried and failed:

1: dH2o with NAOH , and the GLYCIDATE for 1 HOUR AT 80º
2. Concentrated HCL , i think im using a lot, next time i'll add dropwise till end of bubbling/visible reaction and measuring PH-3
3. DISCARD aqueous (maybe should i do the NAOH 5% washing before discanding? )
4. the NAOH washig , if still visible aqueous , Brine
5. 2 water wash till the water in contact with the organic layer shows neutral PH
and the result is that dense dirty crap..... any idea? advices?


the new and promising conversion i received:

1. put the wax and hydrogen peroxide in a ratio 1:8 (what purity of HP? DONT KNOW)
2. Heat, slowly add acid dropwise while stirring and controling PH value (no more info, i suppose till reach 3 or so)
3.after reaction compelted for 2 hours the reaction liquid is extracted with hydroxide sodium solution (i suppose 5%) and the water phase is obtained
4.. the obtained water phase is then added dropwise with acid to adjust the ph value untill an oily substance appears, and the oily substance is extracted with an organic solvent, and then evaporated TO OBTAIN IT

sound very good isn't? but i dont know the safety advices for handle high concentration hydrogen peroxide, never used it...any suggestion?
soince they dont let know what concentration of HYDROGEN PEROXIDE should i use , i suppose the higher possible..here i can find with a lot of difficult 70%

any thoughts?

i only have 100 grams of the ETHYL GLYCIDATE, so i cant loss more trying all..... im trying this synth as a personal satisfaction...


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## btcboss2022

What CAS are you talking about exactly?
Thanks.


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## Fring

btcboss2022 said:


> What CAS are you talking about exactly?
> Thanks.



btcboss2022Not remember now, im not at home, but the new one, the waxy ethyl.methyl pmk glycidate, the one which is giving problems to everyone, unless we find the solution here


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## btcboss2022

I have methods for CAS 28578.


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## Fring

btcboss2022 said:


> I have methods for CAS 28578.



btcboss2022
this is the oil or the white powder form right?
the problem comes with the waxy one..but i have access to the white powder version, could you please send me the method? ill be very grateful with you.
tnx!


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## btcboss2022

Oil, I have methods but not done myself yet I'm waiting an order once I prefer to make them I share the results with all experience on it.
Thanks.


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## Fring

btcboss2022 said:


> Oil, I have methods but not done myself yet I'm waiting an order once I prefer to make them I share the results with all experience on it.
> Thanks.



btcboss2022It seems that the oil only needs direct rearrangement with HCL, same as the old pmk Gly..... then lets see how it goes and please, remember to post here..tnx mate!


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## btcboss2022

Fring said:


> It seems that the oil only needs direct rearrangement with HCL, same as the old pmk Gly..... then lets see how it goes and please, remember to post here..tnx mate!



FringThe info that I have is not this way I will update you.


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## Selassi

I have heard for this new gly the recipe was just with Ethanol, Water and HCl?


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## btcboss2022

My advice is forgot all literature synth posted that is not done personally and wait that we find the best method once we receive the product becasue we have the methods to test directly from producers. Thanks.


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## Fring

btcboss2022 said:


> My advice is forgot all literature synth posted that is not done personally and wait that we find the best method once we receive the product becasue we have the methods to test directly from producers. Thanks.



btcboss2022
the second recipe i posted came directly from the producer lab , in fact sounds very logic and promising, but the first method 8alkali-acid) we all know comes from the recipe of one of the customers of my seller... anyway..didnt worked.. and the more PRO method i didnt tested due to difficult acquiring high % hydrogen peroxide...so im at the begginig point..... lets see how it goes with you mate , looking forward to it.
good luck


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## Fring

Selassi said:


> I have heard for this new gly the recipe was just with Ethanol, Water and HCl?



Selassithis is the logic and general reaction for esthers and if that supposed "glycidate" would be just that it would work for we all...but there is something weird on it..god knows what they added to avoid legal issues..


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## malayboy

I was just decided to open a new thread because of this PMK-Ethyl Glycidate Synthesis route confusion, but you already did

*DISCLAIMER: ALL INFORMATION WRITTEN ARE MY PERSONAL INFO GATHERING, THESE ARE POSTED FOR EASY REFERENCING ONLY*

As a newbie chemist I believe many folks would run into the confusion like me, so I would just bump everything I found on this forum and info I could, as I did not run experiment at current time, just info gathering, further editing might be held

CAS 28578-16-7, All of the pros are talking about, don't bother the name (PMK-Ethyl Glycidate / BMK-Methyl / Ethyl-Methyl PMK / glycidyl ester)

Here is the link of @Jack mentioned in most of the threads for final MDMA Synthesis


Sci-Hub | Methyl 3-[3′,4′-(methylenedioxy)phenyl]-2-methyl glycidate: An Ecstasy Precursor Seized in Sydney, Australia | 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2007.00480.x



A precursor to a precursor has been simplified a lot by @William Dampier





Synthesis of 3,4-methylendioxybenzylmethylketone from piperonal (glycide ester route)(small scale)


Step 1. PMK-glycidate. 1. Freshly prepared powdered sodium ethoxide (23 g.) was added during 4 hours to a stirred mixture of piperonal (50 g.) and ethyl a-bromopropionate (61 g.), cooled in ice-salt. 2. Stirring was continued overnight at room temperature and for 6 hours on the water-bath...




chemforum.info





If you cannot get CAS 28578-16-7 directly, follow the step of @William Dampier with preparations of
- Sodium Ethoxide CAS 141-52-6
- Piperonal CAS 120-57-0,
- Ethyl a-bromopropionate CAS 30365-54-9
- etc.

CAS 28578-16-7 itself can be in different state and color (Pmk/BMK Oil/PMK White Powder)

i believed the steps was to produce MDMA, although there are various names of MDMA like 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine

and then the chemical symbols
CAS 20320-59-6
CAS 5413-05-8
CAS 236117-38-7
CAS 28578-16-7

I found out all of these are meth-alike, my guess is all these could be precusor to methamphetamine as well, we just lack of knowledge and experience. Credits to @Jack , @William Dampier , @DocX and @G.Patton , study basic chem and ELI5 to google


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## Fring

malayboy said:


> I was just decided to open a new thread because of this PMK-Ethyl Glycidate Synthesis route confusion, but you already did
> 
> *DISCLAIMER: ALL INFORMATION WRITTEN ARE MY PERSONAL INFO GATHERING, THESE ARE POSTED FOR EASY REFERENCING ONLY*
> 
> As a newbie chemist I believe many folks would run into the confusion like me, so I would just bump everything I found on this forum and info I could, as I did not run experiment at current time, just info gathering, further editing might be held
> 
> CAS 28578-16-7, All of the pros are talking about, don't bother the name (PMK-Ethyl Glycidate / BMK-Methyl / Ethyl-Methyl PMK / glycidyl ester)
> 
> Here is the link of @Jack mentioned in most of the threads for final MDMA Synthesis
> 
> 
> Sci-Hub | Methyl 3-[3′,4′-(methylenedioxy)phenyl]-2-methyl glycidate: An Ecstasy Precursor Seized in Sydney, Australia | 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2007.00480.x
> 
> 
> 
> A precursor to a precursor has been simplified a lot by @William Dampier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthesis of 3,4-methylendioxybenzylmethylketone from piperonal (glycide ester route)(small scale)
> 
> 
> Step 1. PMK-glycidate. 1. Freshly prepared powdered sodium ethoxide (23 g.) was added during 4 hours to a stirred mixture of piperonal (50 g.) and ethyl a-bromopropionate (61 g.), cooled in ice-salt. 2. Stirring was continued overnight at room temperature and for 6 hours on the water-bath...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chemforum.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you cannot get CAS 28578-16-7 directly, follow the step of @William Dampier with preparations of
> - Sodium Ethoxide CAS 141-52-6
> - Piperonal CAS 120-57-0,
> - Ethyl a-bromopropionate CAS 30365-54-9
> - etc.
> 
> CAS 28578-16-7 itself can be in different state and color (Pmk/BMK Oil/PMK White Powder)
> 
> i believed the steps was to produce MDMA, although there are various names of MDMA like 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine
> 
> and then the chemical symbols
> CAS 20320-59-6
> CAS 5413-05-8
> CAS 236117-38-7
> CAS 28578-16-7
> 
> I found out all of these are meth-alike, my guess is all these could be precusor to methamphetamine as well, we just lack of knowledge and experience. Credits to @Jack , @William Dampier , @DocX and @G.Patton , study basic chem and ELI5 to google



malayboythe problem is that the document of the seized stuff in australia etc, which i already studied, is for the methyl-pmk, (the old an easy to rearrange) not the actual ethyl-methyl form....
in fact the australian equipe followed the old recipe that appears as well in strike total synthesis etc...that cant be used in the new form...
im right @William Dampier ?


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## Bennyboy88

The method was provided for the one that is solid at room temp

1:1:1 P:ethonal:dh20 heat at 60c for 1 hr
2 HCL heat 3.5 hr. At 75c

Around 60%

I think there can be improvement.


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## Selassi

Bennyboy88 said:


> The method was provided for the one that is solid at room temp
> 
> 1:1:1 P:ethonal:dh20 heat at 60c for 1 hr
> 2 HCL heat 3.5 hr. At 75c
> 
> Around 60%
> 
> I think there can be improvement.



Bennyboy88Yes this is exactly the one i meant


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## Fring

Bennyboy88 said:


> The method was provided for the one that is solid at room temp
> 
> 1:1:1 P:ethonal:dh20 heat at 60c for 1 hr
> 2 HCL heat 3.5 hr. At 75c
> 
> Around 60%
> 
> I think there can be improvement.



Bennyboy88
those could work for the same CAS, but in oil or powder form, the more common wax need 2 steps, first alkali the acid.... and of course vacuum distillation.


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## Bennyboy88

Can anyone else offer there method or input for a higher percentage return.


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## Bennyboy88

Fring said:


> those could work for the same CAS, but in oil or powder form, the more common wax need 2 steps, first alkali the acid.... and of course vacuum distillation.



FringI'm referring to the that is oil form at over 33c and start to turn into like dry honey at room temp. It this what u mean by the wax stuff. Thx


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## Fring

Bennyboy88 said:


> I'm referring to the that is oil form at over 33c and start to turn into like dry honey at room temp. It this what u mean by the wax stuff. Thx



Bennyboy88then dont follow the recipe you commented, it will not work.... for the wax you mention you need to 2 alkali-acid-purification, but even knowing it im not having good results...still working on it, changing temperatures, quatity of hcl etc, and seen changes but still bad...


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## Gofast

I’m having the same issue with the wax. After saponification and reaction with HCI a nice light brown coloured oil comes out. After letting this cool off to room temperature it turns dark brown, almost black and thick.

Anyone has input on this?


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## Bennyboy88

Gofast said:


> I’m having the same issue with the wax. After saponification and reaction with HCI a nice light brown coloured oil comes out. After letting this cool off to room temperature it turns dark brown, almost black and thick.
> 
> Anyone has input on this?



GofastTry with the no Noah.


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## Gofast

Bennyboy88 said:


> Try with the no Noah.



Bennyboy88Did you already try this? How was your yield?


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## Bennyboy88

Gofast said:


> Did you already try this? How was your yield?



GofastMy fd tell me about 60%


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## Fring

Gofast said:


> I’m having the same issue with the wax. After saponification and reaction with HCI a nice light brown coloured oil comes out. After letting this cool off to room temperature it turns dark brown, almost black and thick.
> 
> Anyone has input on this?



Gofastit needs final step, vacuum distillation to separate the impurities/water in the brown glue you mention


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## Fring

and yes.... the 1 step by rearranging with HCL is not valid with that wax, it needs before (as you can read in this post and in the others) NaoH 5% with dH2o , then hcl, then brine or even better neutralize with Nahc03 and then the vacuum distilation.


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## HCL

somebody has an actual tested method that works with a high yield? Talking about cas 28578-16-7


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## Gofast

Fring said:


> and yes.... the 1 step by rearranging with HCL is not valid with that wax, it needs before (as you can read in this post and in the others) NaoH 5% with dH2o , then hcl, then brine or even better neutralize with Nahc03 and then the vacuum distilation.



FringThanks for your answer. Maybe I was unclear but what I meant was that I did it in 2 steps. First naoh (and let it sit for at least one hour) and after that the reaction with HCL. Where after adding the the HCL it separated in to two layers.

With the old powders I never distilled them and was able to always use it the oil perfectly fine.

Are your results getting better with the above methods?


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## Fring

Gofast said:


> Thanks for your answer. Maybe I was unclear but what I meant was that I did it in 2 steps. First naoh (and let it sit for at least one hour) and after that the reaction with HCL. Where after adding the the HCL it separated in to two layers.
> 
> With the old powders I never distilled them and was able to always use it the oil perfectly fine.
> 
> Are your results getting better with the above methods?



Gofastin fact the problem is when we compare with the old pmk , because when we obtain that weird organic layer we think all failed , then we dont go ahead, but as i knew everybody who followed the base/acid method had to distill... i would love to know the results if someone follows the hydrogen peroxide method i published in my opened post, because it seems will be much more perfect and clear, but im not willing to handle hydrogen peroxide at more than 70% without a PRO fume hood... i have an extraction aparatus , but.. i'll not take that risk, anyway this method was sent to me from the big form the manufacturer of the stuff, not the re-sellers..so it should be the best of the best options.


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## Fring

Well...after some fails, i think i have done finally... thee result are clean oil, no dirty stuff..no more honey look, but with a big difference if we compare with methyl pmk, the result colour is an brown-dark red oil, with an intense sassafras smell which keeps the state in room temp, and never get freezed, the key id VaCUUM DISTILLATION, dont need a lot of distillation, the water in the post-distillation product its just a little bit.
if you do you will see pretty soon that the reaction is done... no more water passing thru condenser and only a reflux of the oil happens. i will upload pics if i find a comfortable method to do it here.


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## ASheSChem

the forum is safe


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## Gofast

Well...after some fails, i think i have done finally... thee result are clean oil, no dirty stuff..no more honey look, but with a big difference if we compare with methyl pmk, the result colour is an brown-dark red oil, with an intense sassafras smell which keeps the state in room temp, and never get freezed, the key id VaCUUM DISTILLATION, dont need a lot of distillation, the water in the post-distillation product its just a little bit.



Fring said:


> if you do you will see pretty soon that the reaction is done... no more water passing thru condenser and only a reflux of the oil happens. i



Fring


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## Gofast

Fring said:


> Well...after some fails, i think i have done finally... thee result are clean oil, no dirty stuff..no more honey look, but with a big difference if we compare with methyl pmk, the result colour is an brown-dark red oil, with an intense sassafras smell which keeps the state in room temp, and never get freezed, the key id VaCUUM DISTILLATION, dont need a lot of distillation, the water in the post-distillation product its just a little bit.
> if you do you will see pretty soon that the reaction is done... no more water passing thru condenser and only a reflux of the oil happens. i will upload pics if i find a comfortable method to do it here.



FringCongratulations on that! Would you mind on sharing the exact recipe and steps used?


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## Fring

ASheSChem said:


> View attachment 5087
> How you know?
> the forum is safe



ASheSChem


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## Fring

Gofast said:


> Congratulations on that! Would you mind on sharing the exact recipe and steps used?



Gofast
Sure!

1st of all, sorry for my English, i know can be" weird" sometimes..

so, i tried different quantities on the base-acid method till i found the correct.
THE KEY ANYWAY IS THE VACUUM DISTILLATION, i write on Capital because ive seen that (same as happened with me at the beggining) after do the base-acid, whe we see the result (a dirty and extreme dense crappy honey) we think something was wrong , then we dont go ahead.. but here is the key.
FOR 50 GR OF WAX ( went low scale because i have just a small amount of wax)

1. put the 50 gr wax and 70 ml dH2O and 12 Gr Lye , slowly increase the temp at 80º C , when the 80º reached keep stirring it for one hour.

2. add to the mix 32,5 gr of HCL 65% and keep stirring for 1 hour more at 80ºC

3. put in Sep funnel , discard the water layer and add a decent amount of dH2o with 5% sodium bicarbonate (or just make a saturated solution) and do the typical operation in sep. funnel and let it sit for 30 minutes

4. repeat 2 x more times the saturated solution washing, discard water always and the 1 only water washing.
( if an emulsion appears try brine wash)...

5. vacuum distill till all water goes (its just a small quanty who are giving the problems) and could be done in rotovap.
and....

VOILA! you have the desired product, just with a different colour than the old glycidate gaves... the result will be a dark red-brown oil.


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## justlooking88

Can somebody explain the difference between these 2 cas numbers regarding pmk? one seems to be pmk ethyl glycidate and the other pmk methyl glycidate , which is considered old one which converts easily and which is the new one everybody is having a hard time with? Any help would be amazing 

13605-48-6 pmk methyl glycidate

vs

28578-16-7 pmk ethyl glycidate


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## malayboy

Fring said:


> Sure!
> 
> 1st of all, sorry for my English, i know can be" weird" sometimes..
> 
> so, i tried different quantities on the base-acid method till i found the correct.
> THE KEY ANYWAY IS THE VACUUM DISTILLATION, i write on Capital because ive seen that (same as happened with me at the beggining) after do the base-acid, whe we see the result (a dirty and extreme dense crappy honey) we think something was wrong , then we dont go ahead.. but here is the key.
> FOR 50 GR OF WAX ( went low scale because i have just a small amount of wax)
> 
> 1. put the 50 gr wax and 70 ml dH2O and 12 Gr Lye , slowly increase the temp at 80º C , when the 80º reached keep stirring it for one hour.
> 
> 2. add to the mix 32,5 gr of HCL 65% and keep stirring for 1 hour more at 80ºC
> 
> 3. put in Sep funnel , discard the water layer and add a decent amount of dH2o with 5% sodium bicarbonate (or just make a saturated solution) and do the typical operation in sep. funnel and let it sit for 30 minutes
> 
> 4. repeat 2 x more times the saturated solution washing, discard water always and the 1 only water washing.
> ( if an emulsion appears try brine wash)...
> 
> 5. vacuum distill till all water goes (its just a small quanty who are giving the problems) and could be done in rotovap.
> and....
> 
> VOILA! you have the desired product, just with a different colour than the old glycidate gaves... the result will be a dark red-brown oil.



Fring


justlooking88 said:


> Can somebody explain the difference between these 2 cas numbers regarding pmk? one seems to be pmk ethyl glycidate and the other pmk methyl glycidate , which is considered old one which converts easily and which is the new one everybody is having a hard time with? Any help would be amazing
> 
> 13605-48-6 pmk methyl glycidate
> 
> vs
> 
> 28578-16-7 pmk ethyl glycidate



hi @Fring , I would like to know as well, the exact CAS number of Ethyl-Methyl Glycidate for this crucial MDMA precursor, PMK(MDP2P) synthesis
@G.Patton @William Dampier


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## Fring

justlooking88 said:


> Can somebody explain the difference between these 2 cas numbers regarding pmk? one seems to be pmk ethyl glycidate and the other pmk methyl glycidate , which is considered old one which converts easily and which is the new one everybody is having a hard time with? Any help would be amazing
> 
> 13605-48-6 pmk methyl glycidate
> 
> vs
> 
> 28578-16-7 pmk ethyl glycidate



justlooking88dont loss your time man , trust me the Chinese are ALL selling the ETHY METHYL form since the ethyl is banned, they dont play when something is banned..they can sey what they want, but its all ethyl, maybe they even dont know... bear in mind that the vast majority of them dont know nothing about it, they just sell it.


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## mixxxman

just a question by the way someone can explain to me the difference of the powder and the wax ?
cause with a chemistry mind, i don't relly understand the difference of this 2 form.
what exactly change ? the bolting point is not the same ? one is more like a "salt" and the other one is a different texture but with the same molecule ?
all of these details confuse me and i don't really understand.
and if also, if all of these kind of precursor need the same conversion to be a ketone.
thank you for your informations


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## Montecristo

thanks for that write up! i take it you mean 35% HCl ?



Fring said:


> Sure!
> 
> 1st of all, sorry for my English, i know can be" weird" sometimes..
> 
> so, i tried different quantities on the base-acid method till i found the correct.
> THE KEY ANYWAY IS THE VACUUM DISTILLATION, i write on Capital because ive seen that (same as happened with me at the beggining) after do the base-acid, whe we see the result (a dirty and extreme dense crappy honey) we think something was wrong , then we dont go ahead.. but here is the key.
> FOR 50 GR OF WAX ( went low scale because i have just a small amount of wax)
> 
> 1. put the 50 gr wax and 70 ml dH2O and 12 Gr Lye , slowly increase the temp at 80º C , when the 80º reached keep stirring it for one hour.
> 
> 2. add to the mix 32,5 gr of HCL 65% and keep stirring for 1 hour more at 80ºC
> 
> 3. put in Sep funnel , discard the water layer and add a decent amount of dH2o with 5% sodium bicarbonate (or just make a saturated solution) and do the typical operation in sep. funnel and let it sit for 30 minutes
> 
> 4. repeat 2 x more times the saturated solution washing, discard water always and the 1 only water washing.
> ( if an emulsion appears try brine wash)...
> 
> 5. vacuum distill till all water goes (its just a small quanty who are giving the problems) and could be done in rotovap.
> and....
> 
> VOILA! you have the desired product, just with a different colour than the old glycidate gaves... the result will be a dark red-brown oil.



Fring


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## Montecristo

Fring said:


> Sure!
> 
> 1st of all, sorry for my English, i know can be" weird" sometimes..
> 
> so, i tried different quantities on the base-acid method till i found the correct.
> THE KEY ANYWAY IS THE VACUUM DISTILLATION, i write on Capital because ive seen that (same as happened with me at the beggining) after do the base-acid, whe we see the result (a dirty and extreme dense crappy honey) we think something was wrong , then we dont go ahead.. but here is the key.
> FOR 50 GR OF WAX ( went low scale because i have just a small amount of wax)
> 
> 1. put the 50 gr wax and 70 ml dH2O and 12 Gr Lye , slowly increase the temp at 80º C , when the 80º reached keep stirring it for one hour.
> 
> 2. add to the mix 32,5 gr of HCL 65% and keep stirring for 1 hour more at 80ºC
> 
> 3. put in Sep funnel , discard the water layer and add a decent amount of dH2o with 5% sodium bicarbonate (or just make a saturated solution) and do the typical operation in sep. funnel and let it sit for 30 minutes
> 
> 4. repeat 2 x more times the saturated solution washing, discard water always and the 1 only water washing.
> ( if an emulsion appears try brine wash)...
> 
> 5. vacuum distill till all water goes (its just a small quanty who are giving the problems) and could be done in rotovap.
> and....
> 
> VOILA! you have the desired product, just with a different colour than the old glycidate gaves... the result will be a dark red-brown oil.



Fringwhat yield did you get in the end?


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## mixxxman

someone can explain to me the difference on the molecul when it's powder or vax ?
why is like that, and when i am asking directly to them.... they don't have a real answer.
as a chemist mind... i really to understand everything.

and ok, the pmk glycidate was banned / ok the pmk methyl glycidate is banned / right to be clear we have only the PMK ETHYL GLYCIDATE.

someone knows the difference on the conversion ? or if this new group bring something different to the yield at the end.
i am curious to get some tips and differents point of view.

and i have the feeling the kind of oil we have at the end it's bit crappy.. 

someone has some technique to have a best oil, very clear and pure or doesn't matter during process ?
thank you


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## orgasmatron

Bennyboy88 said:


> The method was provided for the one that is solid at room temp
> 
> 1:1:1 P:ethonal:dh20 heat at 60c for 1 hr
> 2 HCL heat 3.5 hr. At 75c
> 
> Around 60%
> 
> I think there can be improvement.



Bennyboy88maybe this can sound annoying or excessively stupid of me, or maybe its the loose definitions thrown around all the time. When you guys say "the one that is solid", does that mean CAS 13605-48-6 or the 28578-16-7 in alleged "powder" form, and is there such thing? What do the chinese mean by powder 28578-16-7? It is my noob preconception that if there is a substance, it has it's own cas, if there is some salt of it, it's a different CAS.
So at the end of the day I would finally like to know what would the best procedure for CAS 13605-48-6 be? If it is the procedure previously described and referred to the Sydney bust, how can one optimize the maximum total volume in the flood ( for 35g, the paper indicates 600ml flood, very unpractical and troublesome)? And how can the copper step from the procedurebe skipped (using hcl?)
thanks everyone


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## mixxxman

and by the way, because... it sound right now most of the mdp2p from this new pmk glycidate it make me a dark and not very clear oil...
some people have few tips ?
cause i would like to know, after the conversion what is the best to extract this ketone.
which kind of solvent can i use to clean my oil ?
few method to make it more clear and pure ? ( distillation ? freezer ? washing with saturated nahco3 ?


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## Fring

mixxxman said:


> and by the way, because... it sound right now most of the mdp2p from this new pmk glycidate it make me a dark and not very clear oil...
> some people have few tips ?
> cause i would like to know, after the conversion what is the best to extract this ketone.
> which kind of solvent can i use to clean my oil ?
> few method to make it more clear and pure ? ( distillation ? freezer ? washing with saturated nahco3 ?



mixxxmanwhy you all guys want to have a non dark oil? whats the matter? this is different pre-precursor, so the result is different...dark red oil... the goal is to have a clean and non dirty oil, following the descibed method (base-acid) the vacuum distill... the result is DIFFERENT, not the same GLY as before guys... so not the same colour...


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## PepitoPistol

Fring said:


> why you all guys want to have a non dark oil? whats the matter? this is different pre-precursor, so the result is different...dark red oil... the goal is to have a clean and non dirty oil, following the descibed method (base-acid) the vacuum distill... the result is DIFFERENT, not the same GLY as before guys... so not the same colour...



FringVisual aspect of a substance is characteristic of it, if there is a notable difference then it might mean it has high amount of contaminants. Do you vacuum distill the ketone? Or just remove the water?
I’m waiting for some PMK ethyl gly…


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## Darkie1990

As i was reading all topics about the PMK-glycidate with CAS: 28578-16-7 to be clear it can come in powder and in oil substance which can get hard under 33*C. All methods above is about the oil/wax substance.

As far as i could get notes about the process i write it in clear language so people can understand this better (included me). I have some questions about those improvements and what to do if made so.



> Step one:
> Mix 1.4 LT DH2O (distilled water) and 240 gr NaOH (Sodium Hydroxide, lye, caustic soda.) and 1 kg eth-gly-pmk cas:28578-16-7 at 80º for an hour



Improvement as read at the forum:


> Instead of mixing distillated water with NaOH and pmk-gly-eth at 80*C for an hour we now mix this at a temperature of 20-21*C for 12 hours.



Question about the improvement:
Do we heat this up to 80*C or do we keep it with NaOH at 20*C. Do we add PMK-gly-eth at 20*C directly or we heat more up?

Step 2: adding acid:


> Add 650g HCL 65%, hydrochloric acid, at 80º mix an hour.
> 2. Concentrated HCL , next time i'll add dropwise till end of bubbling/visible reaction and measuring PH-3



If improvement was made in the step with NaOH and we are adding hydrochloric acid do we raise temperature to 80*C? or do we keep it at 20-21*C? if keep it at 20-21*C do we continue again 12 hours or do we add this step within the first 12 hours?

Step 3 separation:


> Put it in separator funnel, discard the water layer and add a decent amount of dH2o with 5% sodium bicarbonate (or just make a saturated solution) and do the typical operation in separator funnel and let it sit for 30 minutes.





> repeat 2 x more times the saturated solution washing, discard water always and last time only water washing. ( if an emulsion appears try brine wash)...



Step 4 vacuum distill:


> vacuum distill till all water goes (it’s just a small quantity who are giving the problems) and could be done in rotavapor.


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## IM BATMAN

Darkie1990 said:


> As i was reading all topics about the PMK-glycidate with CAS: 28578-16-7 to be clear it can come in powder and in oil substance which can get hard under 33*C. All methods above is about the oil/wax substance.
> 
> As far as i could get notes about the process i write it in clear language so people can understand this better (included me). I have some questions about those improvements and what to do if made so.
> 
> 
> 
> Improvement as read at the forum:
> 
> 
> Question about the improvement:
> Do we heat this up to 80*C or do we keep it with NaOH at 20*C. Do we add PMK-gly-eth at 20*C directly or we heat more up?
> 
> Step 2: adding acid:
> 
> 
> If improvement was made in the step with NaOH and we are adding hydrochloric acid do we raise temperature to 80*C? or do we keep it at 20-21*C? if keep it at 20-21*C do we continue again 12 hours or do we add this step within the first 12 hours?
> 
> Step 3 separation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Step 4 vacuum distill:



Darkie1990well...didnt tried the saponification at room temp. for 12 hours, but i will for sure, since the dark brown colour in this conversion appears after the 80c saponification..maybe it can solve it...about other benefits i dont know....

as for the acid adittion, thats other proccess, yes you should put at 80ª for sure


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## IM BATMAN

mixxxman said:


> just a question by the way someone can explain to me the difference of the powder and the wax ?
> cause with a chemistry mind, i don't relly understand the difference of this 2 form.
> what exactly change ? the bolting point is not the same ? one is more like a "salt" and the other one is a different texture but with the same molecule ?
> all of these details confuse me and i don't really understand.
> and if also, if all of these kind of precursor need the same conversion to be a ketone.
> thank you for your informations



mixxxmanwell...the mistake here its because some folks thinks they can buy the old CAS , but thats not correct, the only available form is the waxy one, there arr 2 presentations of this , but its just the way the producer are finishing it..one is more yellow wax , and other is more white powder, but as soon as those reach 30ªc they will melt...its the same molecule, trust me.


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## IM BATMAN

mixxxman said:


> someone can explain to me the difference on the molecul when it's powder or vax ?
> why is like that, and when i am asking directly to them.... they don't have a real answer.
> as a chemist mind... i really to understand everything.
> 
> and ok, the pmk glycidate was banned / ok the pmk methyl glycidate is banned / right to be clear we have only the PMK ETHYL GLYCIDATE.
> 
> someone knows the difference on the conversion ? or if this new group bring something different to the yield at the end.
> i am curious to get some tips and differents point of view.
> 
> and i have the feeling the kind of oil we have at the end it's bit crappy..
> 
> someone has some technique to have a best oil, very clear and pure or doesn't matter during process ?
> thank you



mixxxmansame products, same proccess...
the matter of improve colour...well..maybe it exists but IMO all the new MDMA will be darker thatn before, you'll see...the new MDP2P is the same stuff but with a darker colour, then the MDMA will darker... just a bit , my results were like old unwashed "coca-cola" looking... no matter how much times you wash it, it keeps that colour


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## moneyboy888

Darkie1990 said:


> As i was reading all topics about the PMK-glycidate with CAS: 28578-16-7 to be clear it can come in powder and in oil substance which can get hard under 33*C. All methods above is about the oil/wax substance.
> 
> As far as i could get notes about the process i write it in clear language so people can understand this better (included me). I have some questions about those improvements and what to do if made so.
> 
> 
> 
> Improvement as read at the forum:
> 
> 
> Question about the improvement:
> Do we heat this up to 80*C or do we keep it with NaOH at 20*C. Do we add PMK-gly-eth at 20*C directly or we heat more up?
> 
> Step 2: adding acid:
> 
> 
> If improvement was made in the step with NaOH and we are adding hydrochloric acid do we raise temperature to 80*C? or do we keep it at 20-21*C? if keep it at 20-21*C do we continue again 12 hours or do we add this step within the first 12 hours?
> 
> Step 3 separation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Step 4 vacuum distill:



Darkie1990


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## moneyboy888

btcboss2022 said:


> Oil, I have methods but not done myself yet I'm waiting an order once I prefer to make them I share the results with all experience on it.
> Thanks.



btcboss2022

bro can you send me the oil methods,thx


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## moneyboy888

malayboy said:


> I was just decided to open a new thread because of this PMK-Ethyl Glycidate Synthesis route confusion, but you already did
> 
> *DISCLAIMER: ALL INFORMATION WRITTEN ARE MY PERSONAL INFO GATHERING, THESE ARE POSTED FOR EASY REFERENCING ONLY*
> 
> As a newbie chemist I believe many folks would run into the confusion like me, so I would just bump everything I found on this forum and info I could, as I did not run experiment at current time, just info gathering, further editing might be held
> 
> CAS 28578-16-7, All of the pros are talking about, don't bother the name (PMK-Ethyl Glycidate / BMK-Methyl / Ethyl-Methyl PMK / glycidyl ester)
> 
> Here is the link of @Jack mentioned in most of the threads for final MDMA Synthesis
> 
> 
> Sci-Hub | Methyl 3-[3′,4′-(methylenedioxy)phenyl]-2-methyl glycidate: An Ecstasy Precursor Seized in Sydney, Australia | 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2007.00480.x
> 
> 
> 
> A precursor to a precursor has been simplified a lot by @William Dampier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthesis of 3,4-methylendioxybenzylmethylketone from piperonal (glycide ester route)(small scale)
> 
> 
> Step 1. PMK-glycidate. 1. Freshly prepared powdered sodium ethoxide (23 g.) was added during 4 hours to a stirred mixture of piperonal (50 g.) and ethyl a-bromopropionate (61 g.), cooled in ice-salt. 2. Stirring was continued overnight at room temperature and for 6 hours on the water-bath...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chemforum.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you cannot get CAS 28578-16-7 directly, follow the step of @William Dampier with preparations of
> - Sodium Ethoxide CAS 141-52-6
> - Piperonal CAS 120-57-0,
> - Ethyl a-bromopropionate CAS 30365-54-9
> - etc.
> 
> CAS 28578-16-7 itself can be in different state and color (Pmk/BMK Oil/PMK White Powder)
> 
> i believed the steps was to produce MDMA, although there are various names of MDMA like 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine
> 
> and then the chemical symbols
> CAS 20320-59-6
> CAS 5413-05-8
> CAS 236117-38-7
> CAS 28578-16-7
> 
> I found out all of these are meth-alike, my guess is all these could be precusor to methamphetamine as well, we just lack of knowledge and experience. Credits to @Jack , @William Dampier , @DocX and @G.Patton , study basic chem and ELI5 to google



malayboy
sir , i already have pmk oil
what next step i can do?


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## malayboy

moneyboy888 said:


> sir , i already have pmk oil
> what next step i can do?



moneyboy888I am not an expert here, please contact @G.Patton @William Dampier , they are expert in this forum and very helpful

and please make sure your PMK cas no. is correct before proceeding any steps, here is few helpful links you might need to refer:



http://bbzzzsvqcrqtki6umym6itiixfhni37ybtt7mkbjyxn2pgllzxf2qgyd.onion/threads/synthesis-of-3-4-methylendioxybenzylmethylketone-from-piperonal-glycide-ester-route-small-scale.24/





http://bbzzzsvqcrqtki6umym6itiixfhni37ybtt7mkbjyxn2pgllzxf2qgyd.onion/threads/synthesis-of-mdma-from-piperonylmethylketone-pmk-with-formamide-and-lah.49/





http://bbzzzsvqcrqtki6umym6itiixfhni37ybtt7mkbjyxn2pgllzxf2qgyd.onion/threads/need-help-with-pmk-ethyl-glycidate-to-mdma-synthesis.682/


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## ChingShih

Anyone really producing finished mdma from this new pmk ethyl glycidate succesfully? 

Or are everyone just having problems with conversions and not properly able to crystalize the finished product?

Why are there no updates for correct PMK ETHYL GLYCIDATE conversion method?


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## IM BATMAN

ChingShih said:


> Anyone really producing finished mdma from this new pmk ethyl glycidate succesfully?
> 
> Or are everyone just having problems with conversions and not properly able to crystalize the finished product?
> 
> Why are there no updates for correct PMK ETHYL GLYCIDATE conversion method?



ChingShihread better bro, the correct conversion its already posted, and yes, i have beautiful crystals , very small scale, but that will not make difference.


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## William Dampier

Conversion by alkali or acid. If a dirty product, purify with bisulfite adduct (soon video). If all this does not work, then your glycidate is trash.


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## IM BATMAN

William Dampier said:


> Conversion by alkali or acid. If a dirty product, purify with bisulfite adduct (soon video). If all this does not work, then your glycidate is trash.



William Dampiercant wait to see the video!!!


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## ChingShih

Can somebody please write down conversion for 1kg pmk ethyl glycidate?
But only those who tried the conversion and have experience, please don't post copy paste if you aren't sure it works


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## Mango2cb

orgasmatron said:


> maybe this can sound annoying or excessively stupid of me, or maybe its the loose definitions thrown around all the time. When you guys say "the one that is solid", does that mean CAS 13605-48-6 or the 28578-16-7 in alleged "powder" form, and is there such thing? What do the chinese mean by powder 28578-16-7? It is my noob preconception that if there is a substance, it has it's own cas, if there is some salt of it, it's a different CAS.
> So at the end of the day I would finally like to know what would the best procedure for CAS 13605-48-6 be? If it is the procedure previously described and referred to the Sydney bust, how can one optimize the maximum total volume in the flood ( for 35g, the paper indicates 600ml flood, very unpractical and troublesome)? And how can the copper step from the procedurebe skipped (using hcl?)
> thanks everyone



orgasmatronI buy from chinese in nowember and december 2021 few kilo of what they told me was CAS 13605-48-6. They didnt deliver any instruction. So what i understand from BenyBoy i should do as below:

The method was provided for the one that is solid at room temp (mine is white powder)

1:1:1 PMK powder CAS 13605-48-6 :etanol : dh20 - heat at 60c for 1 hr
2. Add HCL heat 3.5 hr. At 75c (how much of HCL?) - can somebody give advice?

I ask because there is chance that i have old stuff thay they deliver in late 2021. If its impossible and i have the 28578-16-7 than i will do as it was in this post. 

Is there any chance to tell the diference between 13605-48-6 and 28578-16-7 when its in the form of white powder? 

Thank You


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## mixxxman

IM BATMAN said:


> well...didnt tried the saponification at room temp. for 12 hours, but i will for sure, since the dark brown colour in this conversion appears after the 80c saponification..maybe it can solve it...about other benefits i dont know....
> 
> as for the acid adittion, thats other proccess, yes you should put at 80ª for sure



IM BATMAN
just a question to be sure and because i am curious.

the way to the ketone is it the same when is as a powder or oil ?

thank you so much


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## orgasmatron

mixxxman said:


> just a question to be sure and because i am curious.
> 
> the way to the ketone is it the same when is as a powder or oil ?
> 
> thank you so much



mixxxmanthat's a good one. Well, the melting point of it is really low, at around 35-45⁰C you may find it partially melting back and forth making it some weird wax looking mess. The better (powdery) kinds, and now I'm guessing, are probably purer and have a better defined melting point at around 45 deg. When you have mixtures, these properties can vary and unless you are very schooled and experienced at the deed, can be very unpredictable. I haven't seen a third party analysis but it wouldn't make sense to have two different behavior and same substance.
It's one reasonable hypothesis. 
Their sales force won't give you a better answer unless you are a lot luckier than me.

cheers


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## mixxxman

orgasmatron said:


> that's a good one. Well, the melting point of it is really low, at around 35-45⁰C you may find it partially melting back and forth making it some weird wax looking mess. The better (powdery) kinds, and now I'm guessing, are probably purer and have a better defined melting point at around 45 deg. When you have mixtures, these properties can vary and unless you are very schooled and experienced at the deed, can be very unpredictable. I haven't seen a third party analysis but it wouldn't make sense to have two different behavior and same substance.
> It's one reasonable hypothesis.
> Their sales force won't give you a better answer unless you are a lot luckier than me.
> 
> cheers



orgasmatron
yes it can be very interesting, to know exactly what it can make the differences between the powder and the oil.
i was thinking, maybe it can be a salt of this molecule, when is as a powder ?
and, if the way can be different between the oil and the powder to the ketone


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## mixxxman

if someone can share is knowledge... we are more than happy  !
cheers


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## orgasmatron

mixxxman said:


> yes it can be very interesting, to know exactly what it can make the differences between the powder and the oil.
> i was thinking, maybe it can be a salt of this molecule, when is as a powder ?
> and, if the way can be different between the oil and the powder to the ketone



mixxxmannop. when inquired the very first time about the 'new pmk oil' (CAS 28578-16-7), and asked what would be, if any, the new approach to turn this into real pmk oil ( obviously CAS 4676-39-5) the answer was grand.... "its a trade secret, please don't spread out..." they said. I received a video, it was outstanding! The new product requires just... that you warm it up!... and in the video, I still have it btw, the 'scientist' actually warms up a test tube w/ the solidified product using a lit candle. I was....flabbergasted to say the least. it turns into an oil before your eyes....
I hope we are not talking about the difference between 28578-16-7 and 13605-48-6. This is actually a stable powder and however it produces the same end product if given the right treatment, it is a different molecule altogether and actually gives less yields than it's newer sibling.

Cheers!


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## PepitoPistol

Ar



orgasmatron said:


> nop. when inquired the very first time about the 'new pmk oil' (CAS 28578-16-7), and asked what would be, if any, the new approach to turn this into real pmk oil ( obviously CAS 4676-39-5) the answer was grand.... "its a trade secret, please don't spread out..." they said. I received a video, it was outstanding! The new product requires just... that you warm it up!... and in the video, I still have it btw, the 'scientist' actually warms up a test tube w/ the solidified product using a lit candle. I was....flabbergasted to say the least. it turns into an oil before your eyes....
> I hope we are not talking about the difference between 28578-16-7 and 13605-48-6. This is actually a stable powder and however it produces the same end product if given the right treatment, it is a different molecule altogether and actually gives less yields than it's newer sibling.
> 
> Cheer



orgasmatronAre you talking about MELTING something??? Wow, I could have never figured out that if you heat a wax it actually melts and turns into an oily thing…
People, please do your research, read, then come here and ask specific questions…
There’s a basic chemistry knowledge required for all this.
Not trying to kick anybody out, but some questions imply that you don’t even understand what a cas number is, what a salt is, etc… It will be (even more) dangerous for you. First step is to do your best to study and learn some basics.
The rest is pretty much already answered in this same thread, again READ before reasking the same over and over.
Just my 2 cents.

Wax/oil and powder are not the same thing, they don’t have the same cas number.
Good luck!


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## btcboss2022

Hello,

This is the final stuff that I got from CAS 28578-16-7 wax form:




;-)
Anyway I will test other methods and make some changes to try to improve it as max as possible.


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## ChingShih

btcboss2022 said:


> Hello,
> 
> This is the final stuff that I got from CAS 28578-16-7 wax form:
> View attachment 6056
> ;-)
> Anyway I will test other methods and make some changes to try to improve it as max as possible.



btcboss2022
Beautiful crystal, hats off to chemist


----------



## Cruela

Hello guys.
I'm a little confused about which route do l have to do
I have 1 kg of new pmk ( I guess) but I dont know if it's Wax or Powder
When I squeeze the bag it feels like kinetic sand, Not like powder.
The product smell amaizing with this characteristic safrole odoor
But have a spice or acetic odoor, itchy nose

The supplier gave me this instructions:
1- mix this 4 ingredients in this order
Pmk powder, HCL, Water, and Ethanol the Ratio is 1:2:1:1
Test with 100 gr of powder at a time
2- Mix these four ingredients together and stir them well heat at 70-75 degrees and stir for 3 hours containers cannot be completely sealed
3- And then there's the layering. Get rid of the others. Leave the Oil

I think that this metod is for the old version, and I should do the proess that @Fring did.

What would you do?

Thanks for your help.


----------



## William Dampier

Nol said:


> I have 1 kg of new pmk ( I guess) but I dont know if it's Wax or Powder



NolThe powder looks like the real thing.


Nol said:


> When I squeeze the bag it feels like kinetic sand, Not like powder.


Maybe


Nol said:


> The product smell amaizing with this characteristic safrole odoor


Excellent. There is always an admixture of finished oil in these products.


Nol said:


> But have a spice or acetic odoor, itchy nose


quite possible


Nol said:


> The supplier gave me this instructions:
> 1- mix this 4 ingredients in this order
> Pmk powder, HCL, Water, and Ethanol the Ratio is 1:2:1:1
> Test with 100 gr of powder at a time
> 2- Mix these four ingredients together and stir them well heat at 70-75 degrees and stir for 3 hours containers cannot be completely sealed
> 3- And then there's the layering. Get rid of the others. Leave the Oil
> 
> I think that this metod is for the old version, and I should do the proess that @Fring did.
> 
> What would you do?


Yours is more likely a sodium or potassium salt (check for water solubility). The proposed method should work.


----------



## little499

William Dampier said:


> The powder looks like the real thing.
> 
> Maybe
> 
> Excellent. There is always an admixture of finished oil in these products.
> 
> quite possible
> 
> Yours is more likely a sodium or potassium salt (check for water solubility). The proposed method should work.



William Dampiersir,i think this question may be a bit stupid, all because i'm a mewbie,but i want to ask:
how should i make it crystallize if i use the new bmk oil method


----------

