# Where to get d-tartaric acid?



## Nitecore20 (Aug 6, 2022)

Hello. Can someone tell me, where to get d-tartaric acid in EU? The told, that it is not necessary to buy that expensive stuff from the chemical suppliers... They also told that it could also find in supermarkets etc?? But is that the d- jsomer ?

Kind regards


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## Ihatemybitchwife

Laboratorium discounter has it.


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## Nitecore20

Ihatemybitchwife said:


> Laboratorium discounter has it.



IhatemybitchwifeYes, i know- but extremely expensive. But thanks for your answer


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

Nitecore20 said:


> Yes, i know- but extremely expensive. But thanks for your answer



Nitecore20It's a bit more expensive than standard from wine stores in my country.


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## Botsauto-Dutchland

look @ amazon


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## Gale

U doing lysergamide?


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

probably just separating enantiomers


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## SpectreOfCommunism

winery supply stores


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## MadHatter

SpectreOfCommunism said:


> winery supply stores



SpectreOfCommunismNo. Thats L-tartaric acid. Understand the difference.

I actually wonder this also. It's really hard to find from any of my usual suppliers, including labdiscounter. They have it, but it requires an end user declaration and any order is probably reported.


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

DocX said:


> No. Thats L-tartaric acid. Understand the difference.
> 
> I actually wonder this also. It's really hard to find from any of my usual suppliers, including labdiscounter. They have it, but it requires an end user declaration and any order is probably reported.



DocXI believe any will work d or l if the purpose is separating a racemic sol. of freebase, i remember reading this around here.Either l or d will precipitate just the l part, but again i might be wrong


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## MadHatter

Yes, you might be wrong. You'll need D-tartaric acid.


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## T0R

There is also DL-Tartaric Acid CAS 133-37-9
it is a legal substance in Europe, so this knowing it looks to me best to order from the source
also to avoid user declaration even without your knowing in Holland . 
those Dutch online LAB stores are a treasure for Law Informants. they even go below the normal price just to get information.








D-Tartaric Acid CAS 147-71-7, L-Tartaric Acid CAS 87-69-4, DL-Tartaric Acid CAS 133-37-9 Manufacturers and Suppliers - Price - Fengchen


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www.fengchengroup.com


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## UWe9o12jkied91d

DocX said:


> Yes, you might be wrong. You'll need D-tartaric acid.



DocXOh yeah you're totally right.Now that I go back and read D(+) and D(-) were equivalent, not l and d


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## MadHatter

Saul said:


> There is also DL-Tartaric Acid CAS 133-37-9
> it is a legal substance in Europe, so this knowing it looks to me best to order from the source
> also to avoid user declaration even without your knowing in Holland .
> those Dutch online LAB stores are a treasure for Law Informants. they even go below the normal price just to get information.
> ...



Saul
I can't really see the point of using DL-tartaric acid. wouldn't that just precipitate both isomers as tartaric salts and not isolate any of them?

Other than that, it might be that _I'm_ wrong. Maybe L-tartaric acid can be used to precipitate the L-isomer of the amphetamine, leaving the dextro in solution. But I also read that L-Tartaric acid is more soluble in water. that would make the L-isomer bound to L-tartaric acid more difficult to isolate from solution. Research on my part is ongoing, but if any of our experts would like to chip in on this that would be great.
This is a great resource for info about enantiomer resolution, but I just begun working through the massive amounts of sources: https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=20031.0


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## MadHatter

Ok, I think I'm done. And I stand corrected. One can probably use L-tartaric acid to precipitate out the L-isomer of both meth and amph. It's described here: 


Procedures for the Resolution of Racemic Amphetamines



Just a heads up: the nomenclature can be a messed up. _L-tartaric acid _is called _DEXTRO_-tartaric acid, and used to be named _d_-tartaric acid (with lowercase D). D-tartaric acid is LEVO-tartaric acid and used to be named l-tartaric acid (lowercase L). It confused the shit out of me for a little while. In the text I linked above the old lowercase nomenclature is used. Once you get that, it's pretty easy to follow.


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## T0R

Three stereoisomeric forms of tartaric acid exist:

(1) dextrorotatory tartaric acid (d-tartaric acid) found in grapes and several other fruits,

(2) levorotatory tartaric acid (l-tartaric acid) obtained chiefly by resolution of racemic tartaric acid,

(3) a meso or achiral form. Racemic tartaric acid (an equal mixture of d- and l-tartaric acid) is prepared commercially by the molybdenum- or tungsten-catalyzed oxidation of maleic anhydride with hydrogen peroxide.


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## Nitecore20

DocX said:


> Ok, I think I'm done. And I stand corrected. One can probably use L-tartaric acid to precipitate out the L-isomer of both meth and amph. It's described here:
> 
> 
> Procedures for the Resolution of Racemic Amphetamines
> ...



DocXSo, the one which can be get from the Brewer store, the L-tartaric acid, can also be used for our job?


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## T0R

Nitecore20 said:


> So, the one which can be get from the Brewer store, the L-tartaric acid, can also be used for our job?



Nitecore20
you need to check the lable for the cas nr 
with that nr you look here in this topic.


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## MadHatter

Nitecore20 said:


> So, the one which can be get from the Brewer store, the L-tartaric acid, can also be used for our job?



Nitecore20Yes. The *L-tartaric acid *is the same as *d-tartaric acid*. But NOT the same as *D-tartaric acid*. Notice the difference with the lowercase d and the uppercase D. *L-tartaric acid* is the only kind you'll find at the brewery store anyway. But I would order it from some chemical company online, or possibly eBay.


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## MadHatter

Saul said:


> Three stereoisomeric forms of tartaric acid exist:
> 
> (1) dextrorotatory tartaric acid (d-tartaric acid) found in grapes and several other fruits,
> 
> ...



SaulHere you go, stereochemistry 1.01:


The prefixes *l* and *d* are just short for *dextrorotary* or *levorotary*: which way the molecule rotates polarized light. "*l*" = l*evo* = *to the left*, "*d*" = *dextro* = *to the right*. But these prefixes are old and not used anymore.
In the modern nomenclature these have been replaced by the *(+) *for *dextro* and the *(-) *for *levo*.

The prefixes *L* and *D* _(uppercase letters)_ refer to the *Fischer projections* of the molecules and have nothing to do with how they rotate light, but in what direction key parts of the molecule is drawn in that standardised model. They are in this case actually _*REVERSED*_ in relation to the *d* and *l *prefixes: *d is L and l is D.*

So *L-(+)-tartaric acid* means: "_a tartaric acid molecule that's drawnin the Fischer projection with the relevant group pointed to the *L*eft, and rotates polarized light to the *right*_", a.k.a *dextrorotary*, a.k.a *dextro*, a.k.a *d-tartaric acid*. This is the natural form of tartaric acid.

And, of course, vice versa for *D-(-)-tartaric acid*.

Now, as far as I understand, both isomers of tartaric acid can be used to resolve enantiomers of amphetamines. If you use *D-(-)-tartaric acid* you will get crystals of *d-amph/D-tartrate* crashing out, and if you use *L-(+)-tartaric acid *you will get crystals of *l-amph/L-tartrate* crashing out.
Using *DL-tartaric acid* would be absolutely useless, since it wouldn't separate anything: both enantiomers would crash out.


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## T0R (Sep 15, 2022)

The reason I say to check the cas nr on the bottle is because it is confusing also , Wikipedia post wrong info. So not easy for people becouse they trust pedia 100%


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## MadHatter

Saul said:


> The reason I say to check the cas nr on the bottle is because it is confusing also , Wikipedia post wrong info. So not easy for people becouse they trust pedia 100%



SaulYeah, but I posted the correct information in the thread. It's not very difficult to buy L-(+)-tartaric acid, and noone will order wrong thing since D-(-)-tartaric acid is really rare and very expensive. And certainly not sold in brewery stores.


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## T0R

But what you say to order from eBay is also good because they don't need to cooperate for user data.
There are constant new sellers. Also, Amazon is good for this and when you reserve it you see the real store, so you can order next time there.
Uncle fester also talk abb it and that edition is almost 10 years old .


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## MadHatter

Yeah, but ordering L-tartaric acid is not suspicious behaviour. Noone will have to report those purchases. Order inf D-tartaric acid on the other hand will set off bells and whistles.


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