An idea for an otc method to produce P2P

[dixierecked]

I have to tell you first as a disclaimer: I don't currently have any lab equipment or chemicals so I do what I can from watching a lot of science online in the form of organic chemistry experiments and the like. Having said that, here goes:
I watched a video on YouTube, now available only on BitChute by Chemplayer, a decent channel pretty much instructing noobies how to make precursors. He took calcium hydroxide, dropped in benzoic acid and acetic acid, creating calcium benzoate and calcium acetate in situ, then destructively distilled the pot altogether in a presumed effort to get phenyl2propanone, but getting acetophenone (by way of smell only) and propiophenone. Someone else repeated this and got propiophenone per I don't know what... tonight something struck me funny: cinnamic acid. This is trans phenylpropanoic acid. Couldn't one simply make calcium cinnamate, or purchase this, drop this into a flask with calcium propionate or acetate (have to play with it) and couldn't that create the ketone so very often sought after? Wouldn't that make things easy if I'm right? It's a stab in the dark, but that's how roots are made by plants, so I hope something flowers from this and people can say they tried my method (that'll be the day!). Someone let me know. Godspeed. Be safe.

 

[dixierecked]

Btw, the reason that it would possibly need the other Calcium salts, notably acetate or propionate (feeling more propionate) is because the cinnamic acid salt qouod be the primary alcohol equivalent of the ketone, aka the aldehyde, which isn't quite what we are after. My thinking is that a percentage of the cinnamate will react with propionate to yield the ketone derivative phenylpropan2one, exactly what the physicians assistant needed. Hope you test this when you are bored, chemists. This isn't for large scale production but for ease of operation. Likely you will get an unclean product, including the aldehydes and unblended acid salt. Calcium seemed the best alkaline earth prospect, but others may be used. This is science afterall.

 

[dixierecked]

Btw, the reason that it would possibly need the other Calcium salts, notably acetate or propionate (feeling more propionate) is because the cinnamic acid salt would be the primary alcohol equivalent of the ketone, aka the aldehyde, if calcium cinnamate alone were to be roasted in a round bottom (rb) flask, which isn't quite what we are after. My thinking is that a percentage of the cinnamate will react with propionate to yield the ketone derivative, phenylpropan2one, exactly what the physicians assistant needed. Hope you test this when you are bored, chemists. This isn't for large scale production but for ease of operation. Likely you will get an unclean product, including the aldehydes and unblended acid salt, along with other ketones, including dibenzalacetone, possibly. Calcium seemed the best alkaline earth prospect, but others may be used. This is science afterall. It's a method that has been tested or tested against.

 

[OrgUnikum]

It is Phenylacetic acid (PPA) salt which upon dry distillation with Acetate gives P2P. And thats the reason it is watched/illegal.

 

[dixierecked]

Yes, this I know. I'm looking at novel ways to approach the same product. I recognized that cinnamic acid, while NOT being phenylacetic acid WAS phenylpropionic acid, something that perhaps with another acid bound to an alkaline earth metal like calcium would in fact lead to the same ketone. I don't have the experimental material right now and don't wish to cause excitement in my area so I just input whaT I thought could work. Again, Calcium acetate, when boiled in a rbf (round bottom flask) distills over acetone. When Calcium benzoate AND acetate boil together you get propiophenone. It stands to reason then that if Calcium cinnamate and Calcium propionate were boiled together, perhaps they would yield phenylpropan2one. I don't know. I only hope. It would be nice and no where on earth have I heard it directly challenged.

 

[OrgUnikum]

- You do not use glassware for this but a disposable tin-can, like for solvents and some threaded metal waterpiping stuff for the connection to a condenser which can be attached by the magic of corks and PTFE tape.
- There is an unhealthy obsession in literature with calcium salts in this reaction. What shows nicely what happens when people just copy from others instead of trying it themselves. Calcium salts are pretty much crap for they form a concrete like mixture which makes it for a lot of product impossible to get out. A mix of sodium and black iron oxide (magnetite) with the oxide in excess to form the salts of the acids and mixed VERY well, wet, as slurry otherwise the dust from the acids and salts will eat your eyes. First. Add coarse steelwool to the can. Fill in the slurry. Heat so water stems off and now when it dries and becomes hard it will not be one block of concrete but due to the oxide and the steelwool and because it was wet there will be cracks, plenty of them, allowing your product zu leave.
- Yes more valuable precursors can be made with this, the acids needed are not so common but they can be sourced. The stuff with Hex and the one with Pent in the name...

 

[CryoThio]

When you say sodium, what exact chemical do you mean? Are you saying sodium oxide? Same the black iron oxide, can I get a cas of each?

 

[OrgUnikum]

I am talking about the sodium salt of the carboxylic acid, like sodium benzoate, whats great as you get this cheap and you have not to fuck around with the quite corrosive acid andlets say proprionic acid mixed wet with an excess magnetite, warm it and it reacts to form the iron salt and mix this wet with the benzoate, add some more magnetite (as much as you like) and mix very well. Use a dough kneader or similar kitchen machine. The result is mostly dependent on how well it was mixed. Solvent can,add coarse steel wool (sold for when you re-do wooden flooring) so it goe from botom to top and pour n the mixture you made. Iron and copper do perfectly well under the conditions so youcan use standard fittings for the connection to either a glas-condenser or a copper condenser which also can be assembled from standard plumbing parts.

Make a second wall for the can with 1 to 2 cm distance foil to can, up to where the bend goes to thr condenser, heat with a camping gas burner. The foil is like a chimney and keeps the hot air in contact with the can. Heating from the bottom alone will give substandard yields.

Its easy and fun.

product must be re-distilled.

When done throw the can out.
If you use Ca-salts and glassware, be prepared to throw the whole thing out. Attempts to clean this are usually futile.

 

[CryoThio]

That did answer my question. I have another one that came from your newer post.

It seems one needs two salts, one sodium and one iron salt. The question I have is, how do I determine which I need?

For example, for 4 methyl propiophenone, would one use p toluic acid (can be ordered online I'm sure) to make sodium p toluate, and then what about the other salt? It seems I should mix a carboxylic acid with magnetize, but what carboxylic acid?

I'm confused on what chemical us attached to each salt in order to produce a certain chemical. In this case 4 methylpropiophenone

 

[OrgUnikum]

Benzoic acid + propionic acid -> propiophenone
4-methyl benzoic acid aka p toluic acid will give 4-methyl propiophenone and both can be bought. There is no reason why this should not work, the bp of the product is about 240 °C so no problem here.

But why make it when you can buy it?
It is "Magnetite", the name for the mixed iron oxide. You can use the calcium salts the iron salts or mixed sodium iron salts. Calcium and iron salts will also work. Sodium alone - I am not sure.

 

[CryoThio]

Unlike many here, I'm not interested in commercial chemistry, if you will. So making 4 methyl propiophenone is not an issue of wasted time or money. Especially as legal safety is more important.

If a package for 4 methyl propiophenone gets stopped by customs, however unlikely, it's much harder to argue you were not going to use it for making mephedrone, an illegal drug.

An order of p toluic acid will not be the same.