What is the best route to synthesize methamphetamine on a large scale?

[GhostBlack]

Hello everyone, I would like to know what is the best route to synthesize methamphetamine (around 500 kg), thank you very much for your information.

 

[PNicole]

Your best bet will be Al/Hg hands down. Netherlands should be full of readily available P2NP. You can use metal reactors however they will need to be epoxy coated or the acid will eat through the reactor after around 3-5 reactions (you do not want to be there when it happens). If you are looking for smaller large scale, you can simplify things with 200L glass reactors however you will only achieve around 7.5 or so kg of P2P per batch. We used 20L carboys with plastic hosing attached from the carboy to a glass adapter and added the HCl slowly in small increments. Once one carboy was added, we would attach another one. Then NaOH is added to basify everything and large amounts of water which will cool the reaction enough to switch to distillation. We used an extension column to deal with the splash back and steam distilled the P2P directly from the flask. This is one of the bottle necks, we tried peristaltic pumps, toluene extractions... in the end you will have to do the distillation for 8 hours. That is the best. If you are efficient and start the day early, you can finish in 12 hours.

We would place most reactants in the flask ready to go the night before. We would then wait for it to cool down after distillation, add some water once we are sure the flask wont crack, and suction all the crap out of the flask with a few rinses and some oxalic acid solution. You clean in place. You do not have to take down any setup. Imagine with 4 reactors going and 4 days in a row, you end with 120 kg of P2P. This reaction is terrible at small scale. Once you really scale it, you learn to love it and the yields increase. If you choose something like a metal reactor, its even better but your equipment may end up being disposable. It almost scales in a linear fashion, no real surprises.

Unfortunately, the Al/Hg is not so straight forward. Everything that is available about it online is almost all wrong. Many things apply to MDMA but not so much to Meth production. It can be scaled enormously with the proper understanding of how to create the catalyst and how it is introduced to the reactants. In smaller large scale, it can be done with the same 200L reactors in glass with 90%+ yields. In order to achieve those yield, the reaction must be violent. Foil will not work. It can also be done in 220L metal drums even with no mixing in 73-78% yields and the lid slightly ajar.

The shape of the reaction vessel, how it can hold pressure and how much solvent to Al to Hg makes all the difference. In a large metal reactor, it is also great but you will have to form the amalgam separately in another container and add it in to the Schiff base at the proper time. If you care about your reactor, you may also want to rinse the Al once it is activated with alcohol to remove a good part of the HgCl2. The best part: if done right no external heat is needed. Add toluene and siphon using a peristaltic pump.

Gassing is done by loading up your 200L reactors with conc sulfuric acid, and dripping HCl under slow mixing and passed through a CaCl column and into 220L plastic drums (with the option to open the lid) that sits on a drum dolly. Use multiple setups and drums. Use peristaltic pump again to siphon liquid/crystals into table top buchner. Rinse with acetone and repeat gassing.

Best method.

 

[CryoThio]

Your best bet will be Al/Hg hands down. Netherlands should be full of readily available P2NP. You can use metal reactors however they will need to be epoxy coated or the acid will eat through the reactor after around 3-5 reactions (you do not want to be there when it happens). If you are looking for smaller large scale, you can simplify things with 200L glass reactors however you will only achieve around 7.5 or so kg of P2P per batch. We used 20L carboys with plastic hosing attached from the carboy to a glass adapter and added the HCl slowly in small increments. Once one carboy was added, we would attach another one. Then NaOH is added to basify everything and large amounts of water which will cool the reaction enough to switch to distillation. We used an extension column to deal with the splash back and steam distilled the P2P directly from the flask. This is one of the bottle necks, we tried peristaltic pumps, toluene extractions... in the end you will have to do the distillation for 8 hours. That is the best. If you are efficient and start the day early, you can finish in 12 hours.

We would place most reactants in the flask ready to go the night before. We would then wait for it to cool down after distillation, add some water once we are sure the flask wont crack, and suction all the crap out of the flask with a few rinses and some oxalic acid solution. You clean in place. You do not have to take down any setup. Imagine with 4 reactors going and 4 days in a row, you end with 120 kg of P2P. This reaction is terrible at small scale. Once you really scale it, you learn to love it and the yields increase. If you choose something like a metal reactor, its even better but your equipment may end up being disposable. It almost scales in a linear fashion, no real surprises.

Unfortunately, the Al/Hg is not so straight forward. Everything that is available about it online is almost all wrong. Many things apply to MDMA but not so much to Meth production. It can be scaled enormously with the proper understanding of how to create the catalyst and how it is introduced to the reactants. In smaller large scale, it can be done with the same 200L reactors in glass with 90%+ yields. In order to achieve those yield, the reaction must be violent. Foil will not work. It can also be done in 220L metal drums even with no mixing in 73-78% yields and the lid slightly ajar.

The shape of the reaction vessel, how it can hold pressure and how much solvent to Al to Hg makes all the difference. In a large metal reactor, it is also great but you will have to form the amalgam separately in another container and add it in to the Schiff base at the proper time. If you care about your reactor, you may also want to rinse the Al once it is activated with alcohol to remove a good part of the HgCl2. The best part: if done right no external heat is needed. Add toluene and siphon using a peristaltic pump.

Gassing is done by loading up your 200L reactors with conc sulfuric acid, and dripping HCl under slow mixing and passed through a CaCl column and into 220L plastic drums (with the option to open the lid) that sits on a drum dolly. Use multiple setups and drums. Use peristaltic pump again to siphon liquid/crystals into table top buchner. Rinse with acetone and repeat gassing.

Best method.

PNicoleI have some questions I hope you can answer

What type of epoxy?

Do you have any more info on using a 55 gallon drum as a reactor? I was thinking putting a homemade distillation column on a 55 gallon drum, so I could do everything in one go, reaction, distillation, the whole thing.

What is a good ratio of solvent to Al to Hg?

You mentioned that it is important how one adds the catalyst (I believe this to mean the amalgam). Can you give a general guide to how one should add the catalyst?

Thank you!

 

[gmo]

You have to keep the following variables in mind

• the volume or "space" where the Al can interact with the HgCl2
• the surface area of the Al
• the time required for amalgamation
• the volume of the solvent used
• the solvent used

So for the solvent, simply always (and I mean always) use Methanol. That one is easy and straight forward.

The other variables depend on one and other. The one variable you should keep consistent is Al. Once you establish the conditions of how your source of Al will react with HgCl2, you can proceed with volumes of solvent needed and ratios of Al:HgCl2

In general, you want to keep the space where Al and HgCl2 meet very small. Round bottom flask achieves this easily because it shrinks at the bottom.

Containing a violent reaction is when you achieve high yields. Essentially, with a reactor flask or round bottom flask with the only exhaust being one or two condensers, you can create enough pressure to hit 90-92% yields.

You could also create enough pressure that the alcohol no longer goes up the condensers and one of your workers decides to undo the electrical tape around a stopper to reduce the pressure and does a back flip along with the 45/50 stopper shooting to the ceiling with a healthy splash of sludge, much of which landed on the visor of his 3M 7800 series respirator. Somehow stlll achieved a 77% yield.

Now getting back to the drum question. I have never attempted to seal the drum or do what you are suggesting. It could work, I would have attempted it but my retirement came earlier. Certainly worth a try.

Now think of the shape of the drum. It is wide. If you want to create the catalyst in the drum, you will perhaps have to tilt it to keep the volume low. You may also create the catalyst in a large beaker or erlenmeyer and dump it into the Schiff base already create in the drum.

You will not achieve those 90% + yields but what an affordable and easy to acquire reaction vessel.

PNicoleWitch one best for large scale?phenyl acetic acid+lead acetate or p2np+fe/HCl

 

[Frit Buchner]

You're going to burn your parents house down. Guy upvthere talking about chemicals is mixing 4 different reaction schemes. But none you would use because they are for reducing ephedrine pseudoephedrine ect. You would be starting with p-2-p or bmk or something that isn't pseudoephedrine.